Preview of the DEI annual workshop Queening out: Drag as a model and mode of exploration in group studies with Dr. John Stitt and Geoffrey Hervey

by Stacy Nakell

Aaron Bandy, chair of the DEI committee at AGPS, invited Dr. John Stitt and Geoffrey Harvey to Austin to present the DEI workshop this year. He experienced their work in an open session at AGPAConnect 2025 and is thrilled the facilitators agreed to present a similar workshop at AGPS.

"I found the session enormously impactful and very moving. As a middle-aged gay man, seeing the two of them give an academic professional workshop and performance in an academic setting was very impressive, especially since in my 20s, during the rampant and publicly accepted homophobia of the 1990s, doing so would've been virtually impossible. The true pride I felt for these two people that I didn't even know gave me access to a pride I have myself for my own Queerness, that can sometimes get lost in my drive for acceptance. I'm very proud of the opportunity to bring the two of them to Texas, and I hope that members who come to the event on July 19 are as impacted and moved as I was.”

The following interview was edited lightly for clarity and flow:

S: I’m Stacy Nakell. I’m here with Geoffrey Hervey and newly minted Dr. (!) John Stitt, otherwise known as Sinclair and Karli Marx, which we will get to! We’re excited to host you in Austin in July. Not that many people in Austin know of your work and we’d like to give them a taste.

First, how did each of you make the connection between drag and group therapy?

G: We initially made the connection between drag and sexuality. We had submitted a proposal for the APA Division 39 annual conference in 2024. The focus of that spring meeting was on sex and sexuality. Both of us happened to be at George Washington University in DC and because both of us had a history in drag artistry and we happened to be friends and peer mentees we thought we might want to do something unorthodox and funky and really transgressive. That was the initial connection of thinking about how drag as a practice can map onto a lot of psychoanalytic concepts. From there we started to think about drag as a performance, not just singular to the drag artist, the actual performance of drag in which there is a venue and an audience and so many people interplaying in the space.

J: In our first presentation, as we were fleshing it out, the co-chairs of the conference asked if we would be willing do a performance on top of our presentation, which brought into focus a lot of the pieces we’ve thought about in relation to the engagement between the performer and audience, how it is a connection and a group process. We took elements of that and brought it into our presentation for AGPA Connect in 2025, gearing it more to how it helps the individual relate to the group.

S: When you come in July can we expect a dance performance?

J: Maybe one or two!

S: This was your first time presenting at AGPA and on such a unique topic, how was that experience?

J: It was really cool, every time we have the opportunity to go to a professional conference and do something out of the norm, present in drag, have a drag show as part of our presentation, it really opens up this space that for so long has been inaccessible. We go into a space that is super rigid and traditionally academic and do something different with it, we want to camp up the space, ‘queer it up’ which is one of the core pieces of the way we like to engage people in learning these ideas.

G: In terms of camping up the space and queering the space, I think both of those verbs speak to an expansion and a transformation of these academic conference spaces. I don’t want to speak for a lot of people but I’ve been to a couple of these conferences before and they can get pretty dull. I think that is pretty indicative of what it’s like in the ivory tower, especially when it comes to social sciences, critical theory. I think we can get so lost in the theory and the concepts that it can get a little removed. What I found was really cool about us presenting at AGPA Connect is that we were able to have those intellectual pieces that people really seemed to respect and respond to, while they were still having fun, being engaged, being entertained, and while they were tapping into something within themselves, just by our own presence and presentation, that was really touching to me.

S: That was really clear, and developed over the whole session, how you brought us into queering the space and what that might look like. You even made me think outside the box and outside my professional hat of being the observer of the session at the time. We think you have to be buttoned up in a certain way to be respected and you sort of turned that on its head.

S: I did happen to notice that after the session as you walked around the hotel you got a lot of attention!

J: Funny story, we went to the wrong venue and shook up the wrong space, and that’s drag! Everywhere we went in drag, in a club, walking on the street, in a car, people notice you, it’s attention grabbing and that’s part of what we are saying, it’s like, “Look at me, I’m doing something outside of the box here.” There are situations where drag is more expected and we were doing it in a place where it is very unexpected, so that created a lot of interest, a lot of desire to get to talk to us. People asked us questions about who we were, what we were doing there, about our identities. I think it is just so generative, to have people in drag in a space. It starts a conversation. There is no way to not look and talk about it!

G: I don’t know if half of those people would have talked to us had we not been in drag. Part of me wants to think they were just enraptured by our beauty, but also, we stood out, and that made people engage, and when they found out we were presenters, they wanted to know what we were presenting about, which again brought the scholarly elements into it.

J: I think someone even said to us, “Oh, I wish I had known you were going to be doing this in drag!”

G: Isn’t that fascinating, that people would have been more drawn to show up with that visual stimuli as opposed to us just showing up in slacks and a blazer. We are definitely in a conservative slide right now, but in the last 10-15 years the visibility of drag has been uplifted to a point where I think people can recognize at the bare minimum the entertainment value, if not the intellectual aspects, at least to see some gorgeous stunning women.

S: As someone who has been out of the drag show scene for at least 2 decades, it brought back to me this reminder of the joy in drag performance. I wonder if you could talk about what it means to hold onto that joy at the same time as there is this current repression, and some sense of danger around performing drag in the US.

G: Where my mind goes is that drag is a queer art form and is a cornerstone of queer culture. In times of conservatism and in times of repression, queer people are obviously targeted, but the thing about that, is that queer people have always existed and always persisted. I think that’s where the joy is ignited and activated. We do have this age-old refrain of, “We’re here, we’re queer, get used to it,” and I think drag is one of the ways in which we’re here and we’re queer and we continue to get used to it. I touched on those entertainment pieces, but there’s also, and we speak to this in our presentation, there’s also a liberatory aspect to the transformative power of drag. I think taking in both the entertainment and the liberation, that’s where the joy is really derived.

J: One of the other things we talk about in our presentation is how drag is a community art form, how it’s a sisterhood. When I think about the goals of repression, what are the things that are being taken away, there is so much resistance in still having queer joy and engaging in these traditional queer art forms that are so powerful and so connecting to the community. Drag has always been on the fringes. There has always been some level of pushback to drag, so it’s kind of so fierce to be able to be like, “You are over there hating on me and I am still having a great time in my wig and my heels, and making money. That’s a powerful statement!

S: So just showing up is a political and liberatory act, “I’m not going to conform just because you want me to.”

G: As someone who was in the audience, you were privy to some of the audience interaction, did you experience any joy?

S: I think you know that I did because I was bubbling over with it by the time I got to hug you both at the end, and, it was on a few different levels. Being able to play with and laugh at my professional role. Because I ended up ‘queering time’ and letting you go a little longer, because we weren’t going to miss out on the dance formamce!

Another part of the joy was reconnecting more with my masculine side, I don’t get as many places to show that or feel that. I love that you asked everyone about their drag name, introducing the idea that, queer or straight, everyone can have a drag name, an alter-ego. I was able to tell you about my drag name, my alter-ego, Flash, when I was an amateur boxer. That was my favorite part of boxing, going through all of the ritual. For you all the ritual and preparing makeup and the hair and what you are wearing, the idea of preparing through a ritual to enter into a different kind of space where anything can happen, I think that is a space where joy can flow.

You also communicated beautifully that this doesn’t just apply to queer people. We all need a little bit of queering, inside of ourselves, inside of our worlds. I want to make that clear that anyone anywhere on the gender continuum is invited and honored wherever they are. For some queer spaces you have to be queer to be in the space, and that makes sense in many cases, but there is something about everybody needing to queer our gender a little bit that is part of what I found so exciting.

J: Thank you for sharing some of your reactions. This is what we love about our presentation, that chance to build these connections, like getting to hear about your drag name and how this relates to other areas in your life. You make such a good point, this is not just for queer people, there is so much value in applying queer theory to everyone’s life, disrupting these systems that we are inculcated into, and we have so much more space than we are given.

S: What are you hoping people will walk away with?

G: Truthfully Stacy, a lot of the things you just described. What you were saying about reflecting on your own sense of self and the various self-states you were able to access through, if not doing drag, hearing and thinking about drag. That’s what we intended, how we purposefully structured our presentation. We were intentional about not just having a strict lecture but to, one, show up in drag as a living, breathing example of what we are speaking to, and also to loop the audience into the same process, to make it immersive and organic for people. Not only to have a more expansive idea of what psychoanalysis and academia can look like but what drag can look like.

S: Will you include an opportunity for us to learn how to apply these drag principles to our own groups?

J: We are going to run a demo group, so hopefully we will get to show some interventions live and in person. We are going to talk about how to use this interactively. The goal of our presentation is to ground us in the theory, what we are thinking happens internally for each person in the group, how this impacts the group as a whole, and then move it into a practical, playful fun space where we can try things out, see what works, see what doesn’t learn new things, just experiment. Which is a lot of what drag is, throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

S. Is there anything I haven’t asked that you want to share?

G: We have touched on the fact that times are a bit trepidatious as to visibly queer elements in our country. I hope that John and I and Aaron and the other organizers can cultivate a space in which we can live and talk freely.

J: Now is the time when it is becoming even more important to use our voices and our platforms to keep these conversations going in the face of a lot of repression and political pushback.

Hopefully if you love drag and you show up you have a space where it is fun to learn, if you don’t love drag or you have no experience with drag and you show up, hopefully we make this accessible, so it’s fun to get to know a couple drag queens.

S: Great, we look forward to seeing you in just over a month!

Deborah Sharp, LCSW-S, CGP, AGPA-F is a previous President of Austin GPS and is Chair-Elect for the Affiliate Society Assembly, an Executive Committee position for AGPA. She runs four groups in her private practice and a monthly formation group for Jungian Analysts in training. Deborah is delighted to announce her graduation on January 21st from the Center for Group Studies where she also serves as a member of the Steering Committee for Social Justice.

If you are interested in joining her Thursday morning 8:00 consultation group call 512-422-5818 or contact her through her website.  https://deborah-sharp.com

You are leading an institute on emotional engagement. What led you to focus on this topic?

I have both a professional and personal interest in the topic! As a sensitive, deep feeler who internalized a lot as a kid, shame and fear took residence in my nervous system. Many (many!) years in emotionally engaged individual and group therapy has helped me explore the thoughts and feelings I decided were off limits, not safe, or would result in rejection or relational ruptures I wasn’t equipped to handle. My window of tolerance for my own emotions, and others’ emotions, expanded. As a group leader, helping my clients authentically engage with one another is a foundational part of the job. Emotions help people bond to one another. They help us know where the hurts are, what’s important to us, what we want or need, where our boundaries are.

Groups that spend too much time analyzing, fixing, or storytelling can start to feel boring and disconnected. Helping people say more about what they feel, while staying curious about what they aren’t expressing and why, creates thriving groups.

And why an institute on the topic?

Experiential learning is critical for group therapists. The more parts of ourselves we get to know, the more conscious and regulated we can be in the therapy room. We increase our capacity to be with our clients in the fullness of their own growth and healing.

What are the challenges of emotional engagement, the positives, or the goals?

Groups with high emotional engagement have an energy current that feels alive and self-renewing. When members take risks to express what they feel inside themselves and towards one another, they typically feel alert, engaged and invested in the process. But everyone has a different window of tolerance for emotions, and everyone has defense mechanisms or protective parts that show up when things feel too vulnerable. In a group there is often a push/pull between wanting to engage emotionally, but also wanting to stay safe and comfortable. As a leader it can be challenging to balance members’ different experiences of safety and hold the dialectic of respecting protective strategies while also encouraging emotional contact.

My kids attended a camp that encouraged taking “reasonable risks” and I loved that phrase. I think it applies perfectly to group therapy. The goal isn’t to break down all our defenses, overwhelm the nervous system, or discharge emotions in an uncontained way.

The goal is for members to take enough reasonable emotional risks that they are growing and the group feels alive.

What do you love most about group therapy?

At the top of the list is probably how group therapy provides a new experience in a “family.”

Group can stimulate family of origin wounds like nobody’s business, but it also provides a unique therapeutic environment that supports healing and integration when those old wounds emerge. To sit with a group that’s deep in emotional work, then erupts in shared laughter in response to a member’s well-timed joke, is a master class in nervous system co-regulation. The ritual of showing up week after week, staying curious about oneself and others, and investing in a shared relational experience provides a slow drip of healing and personal growth that’s hard to replicate and very needed in our world.

Tell us something about your groups (the idea here is your ideal client and what that client could possibly gain from becoming a group member)

I lead four long-term process groups focused on personal and relational growth. I also lead a process group for therapists, and have a new online group for therapists starting in early fall (I still have spots in this group if anyone is looking for a group home!). I tend to work with people who have family of origin wounds, attachment insecurities, perfectionism, and shame. Group supports people as they learn to express the thoughts, feelings, and desires they adapted to ignore or manage in less relationally healthy ways. Group also provides a secure base. Over time, being part of a “good enough” group – one that is reliable and responsive and doing the work of rupture and repair – can support one’s movement towards earned security.

Austin Group Psychotherapy Society (AGPS) believes everyone deserves access to comprehensive, evidence-based, competent care informed by accredited and licensed professionals. As mental health professionals, we are deeply concerned about recent legislation in Texas and other states unaligned with evidenced-based, inclusive practices.

The Texas state legislature has introduced a record number of anti-LGBT+ bills, with several seeking to criminalize essential health care for transgender youth, their families, and the medical and mental health providers who support them. Recently, a group of families, health care providers, and human rights organizations have sued Texas and some state agencies over Senate Bill 14, signed into law last month to ban gender-affirming care.

These bills endanger the health and well-being of transgender youth, their families, and communities. They serve only to propagate harm and stigmatization and interfere in a relationship that most appropriately lies with an adolescent, their parents, and their doctors. With the continued threat to trans healthcare and safety, many families and adults with financial means have made the difficult decision to uproot their lives to find new homes, jobs, and schools outside of Texas. Knowingly producing or advancing legislation oppressing fundamental human rights to comprehensive, evidence-based, competent care hurts our communities. 

AGPS Board Statement

Austin Group Psychotherapy Society (AGPS) condemns policies of discrimination based on an individual’s sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity. Clinical interventions for gender dysphoria should not be criminalized or restricted. AGPS advocates for policies and laws that promote acceptance of all without fear of harassment, exclusion, or bullying because of gender expression.

Signed,

AGPS Board

Alyson M. Stone, PhD, CGP

Courtney Stollon, LCSW-S, LCDC, CGP 

Steve Cheney, LPC

Monrovia Van Hoose, LCSW, CGP 

Allen Lambert, LCSW-S, CGP,

Donna Rich, LCSW

Melissa Hargrave, LMFT-S, LPC-S

Aaron D. Bandy, NBCT, LCSW

Janet Griffis, MA, LPC, LMFT

Amanda Fuhr, LCSW

We are happy to congratulate to Monrovia Van Hoose, AGPS Board member. Monrovia became a Certified Group Psychotherapist in February, and an LCSW Supervisor in May of 2023.

Monrovia was a member of AGPS for nearly a decade before she started her own process group or joined the board. "Receiving training and being in the milieu of the AGPS community for so long seems to have had a cumulative effect on me. It felt like one day I just woke up and felt ready to start leading groups, but in reality I'd been subtly preparing myself for years."

The CGP designation is determined by the International Board for Certification of Group Psychotherapists, and you can find out more information about it from our governing body, the American Group Psychotherapy Association at: https://www.agpa.org/cgp-certification/.

You can find out more about Monrovia’s training and supervision offerings at: https://monroviavanhoose.com

AGPS member, Kathleen Adams, Ph.D, is the author of Attuned Treatment of Developmental Trauma: Non-abused, High-functioning People Living Outside of Time (©2022, Routledge). This book takes a painstaking look at developmental trauma as it manifests in group, individual, and combined psychotherapies, tracking the growth of non-abused individuals who have courageously addressed overwhelming childhood experiences to make sense of the chaos in their lives. Adams has specialized in primitive states, dissociation, and developmental trauma since 1977. Extensive experience in inpatient settings complements her long-term outpatient psychotherapy practice with children, adolescents, and adults.

AGPS member, Stacy Nakell, LCSW, CGP, is the author of Treatment for Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors: An Integrative Psychodynamic Approach (©2023, Routledge). The book establishes a theory and practice of a psychodynamic approach to treating body-focused repetitive behavior disorders (BFRBDs), one grounded in attachment theory and neurobiological research. Nakell provides psychotherapy to people struggling with body-focused repetitive behaviors and provides clinical consultation.

Dear friends & colleagues, This message marks the last time I will write to you as President. It’s been a challenging past two years for us all and it’s been an honor and a privilege working with such a great Board. I certainly had different expectations about what our organization would be navigating when I started this role. Though I would have liked to be working on different priorities, l am quite proud of what we have accomplished together.  In a quick pivot the board successfully transitioned to provide events and training online. Our Board successfully gave energy to maintaining our connections and continuing to develop as an organization. We provided more events with a focus on the impact of diversity and difference. We welcomed a large cohort of scholarship recipients. We transitioned to a new website that allows better membership management and removes the need for technical skills on our board. We continue to be financially sound. We continue to grow our numbers and welcome new members. Shifting and maintaining all this during a pandemic is a testament to the Board and to our organization. What’s Next I am excited what comes next for AGPS!  I warmly welcome Pierre Choucroun, LPC, CGP as our new President in January! Pierre has a strong group practice, a creative clinical mind, and a deep commitment to group therapy. He brings fresh eyes and ideas along with patience in his leadership to the Board. His value for increasing awareness and access to great group therapy training here in Austin will continue our growth.  Join me in welcoming the following members to our Board of Directors. They have been recommended by the Nominating committee and officially elected by our membership. Treasurer: Steve Cheney, MA, LPC Member-at-Large: Monrovia Van Hoose, LCSW (Institutes Chair) Member-at-Large: Donna Rich, LCSW (Events Co-Chair) Member-at-Large: Allen Lambert, LCSW, CGP (Events Co-Chair) Member-at-Large: Dana Reichman, LMSW (Development Chair)  Continuing on the Board: President: Pierre Choucroun, PhD, LPC, CGP Past-President: Scott Phillips, LMFT, CGP Secretary: Courtney Stollon, LCSW, LCDC Member-at-Large: Patty Olwell, MA, LPC, CGP (Marketing Chair) Member-at-Large: Stacy Spencer, LCSW-S (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Chair) With Appreciation As I transition into an advisory role as Past-President, I’m acutely aware of the contributions of our Board members and leaders that made these challenging past two years a success. Send them a message or say thank you when you connect with them again.  Rolling off the Board: Treasurer: Rhea Pledger, LPC, CGP (2020-2021) Member-at-Large: Kayle Evans, LCSW-S, LCDC (Programming Chair, 2018-2021) Member-at-Large: Charles Couchman, PhD (Institutes Chair, Editing Chair, 2018-2021) Member-at-Large: Kristen Wicke, LPC, CGP (Development Chair, 2020-2021) Member-at-Large: Bree McDaniel, LCSW (Membership Chair, 2020-2021) Special thanks for the work of Annual Conference Chair   Laura Ebady & Committee members Aaron Bandy, Courtney Stollon, & Michael O’Donnell for facilitating a powerful learning experience.    Katherine Barnhill has done an outstanding job as CEU Chair. Our Nominating Committee Chair  Anna Graybeal  & committee members  Lavanya Shankar   and  Jason Sugg have done wonderful work identifying our next leaders. Our leadership is consistently made stronger with fresh perspectives and diverse interests - consider enriching your group community by serving on a committee, a project, or the Board! Committees and projects offer a great way to get to know other leaders or for long time members to get reconnected and to give back. We continue to look for a good fit to fill our Membership chair for the coming year - reach out to Pierre Choucroun with any recommendations or interest (President@AustinGroups.org). We hope to see you on Friday January 14, 2022 at our AGPS Annual Business Meeting and Small Group Breakouts “Returning to the office?: Practical, Ethical, and Emotional Considerations”.  All the best - and Happy Holidays! Scott Phillips, LMFT, CGP President Austin Group Psychotherapy Society

Many thanks to Rachel Burgreen, LCSW-S for her presentation on “Radically Open DBT and Disorders of Overcontrol”. Attendees reported the training was wonderfully informative and useful - providing a lot about the subject matter. We appreciated Rachel’s warm and accessible presenting style.

Find the presentation slides below:

Radically Open DBT and Disorders of Overcontrol with Rachel Burgreen.pdf

RODBT Handout 16.1.pdf

Message from the President

Welcome,

After months of hard work and dedication, we are delighted to announce the launch of our newly updated website! The address is the same (www.AustinGroups.org), but we hope visitors will find it more user-friendly, faster, and easier to navigate.

The new website integrates multiple functions, including our membership platform, events registration, and groups directory. Our previous website served us for more than a decade, but was no longer working together in these areas and required frequent troubleshooting. By simplifying the complexity with one integrated system, we anticipate our board’s time and energy can be better spent engaging with people instead of technical problems. 

All changes come with bumps in the road, but we expect you will have an improved member experience. The updated site features easily accessible online profiles with direct access to edit listings, update contact & financial information, and see records of event registrations and transactions. We also expect the update will provide improved communication regarding event experiences and membership needs. In the future, we intend to expand the ways we use News & Updates features to provide more information about what’s going on behind the scenes and increase involvement with the community we serve. 

I would like to specifically thank my fellow website committee members, Gianna Viola and Patty Olwell, for the donation of their time and energy, and our web developer, Mindy Morgan-Avita, who has been a responsive and helpful partner for us. We wholeheartedly recommend her work!

Sincerely,

Scott Phillips
President - Austin Group Psychotherapy Society

Suggestions for AGPS Members:

• First time Login requires you to reset your profile password
• Review & Update your Profile & Groups Listing
• Questions? See our FAQ or message our Membership Chair